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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.09.17 21:25:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Proxyyyy
One being starfa*tion that wont stay out of faction warfare they interfered alot on the amarr side and i saw taht right away when i joined.
Something wrong with your keyboard?
3rd Forces in FW - discuss! |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:23:00 -
[2]
I think it frustrates the TLF quite a lot that the 24th Crusade is undoubtedly an extremely risk-averse organization. I think partly thats the contribution of the RP corps in the 24th Crusade unfortunately - they really really don't like losing ships and the attitude generally filters down into the rank and file of the 24th fighters.
Plus - its probably fair to say that the TLF members tend to be more casual about their gaming than the 24th Crusaders. The Minmatar want to log-in - have some fun fights, get into messy battles and see what happens and thats a fine and enjoyable way of playing the game of course.
Problem is that the 24th Crusade leadership is absolutely fanatical about K/D ratio and only engaging on favourable terms and making sure the engagements are won on paper before deciding to engage.
I guess on one level it means that the 24th Crusade leaders are "better" gamers than the TLF leaders and its undoubtedly the case that they get better results. But does it bring more fun for their side than their opponents? I'm not so sure about that actually and I've heard a lot of rank and file moaning and groaning at the very common decisions to withdraw to hisec whenever an actual risky engagement is offered.
From my perspect as a Star Fraction pilot I have to say its gotten to the point where the 24th Crusade almost always needs to be tricked into fighting - they never really attack off their own back and its generally a matter of baiting traps and hotdropping appropriate forces.
(Of course our involvement is on a slightly different level to the TLF - and we're here to destabalize 24th Crusade fleet command and try to balance the odds a bit.)
But ultimately - I think a lot of the bad feelings comes from the 24th "must win and never lose ships" ethos clashing with the "lets just have fun" ethos of the TLF. Its a bit incompatible in this warzone and does seem to be stripping a lot of general fun from the conflict.
Still - there's always time to turn it around but as long as its the RP corps calling all the shots in the 24th Crusade I can assure you the TLF will never get "fair fights" and Amarrians engaging against the odds unless the Minmatar players seriously threaten the 24th Crusade plexing dominance because the only thing the RP overlords of the 24th do care about is system occupancy and unless that is challenged they have absolutely no reason to risk themselves on dicy engagements.
Anyway - thats my 2 cents on the current state of play.
3rd Forces in FW - discuss! |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.09.25 00:04:00 -
[3]
Oh dear haven't we moved past this yet?
Originally by: Grim Asse
Coming from the roleplaying alliance that hotdrops carriers to kill solo BS's
To kill a docking game abaddon in the 45secs you have before it disengages and redocks you need to be dealing around 170,000 points of damage. If you need to bring in battleships from out of the system you need to factor in the warp to station delay and upscale accordingly. Alternatively you can use the Titan Bridge to drop 6 battleships directly on the dock-monkey and end his ship. If you have a problem with this tactic I suggest you stop counting on docking games to protect your battleship.
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... and keeping a titan in a system for armour bonus...
Mostly the Erebus is useful for the bridge. We hardly ever have enemy groups prepared to engage with numbers in kamela where it would actually deploy its gang bonus to make a difference. That said we'd be happy to lend the armour bonus to a TLF commander if they wanted to force a fleet confrontation in Kamela.
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... which only stations undock range their carriers never leave in ...
Nonsense. You are just talking rot there. Our carriers have fought at gates/belts/fleet battles and we're generally prepared to deploy directly into 24th crusade fleet concentrations as any of your regular commanders know well. Don't let smack-instincts lead you into saying silly things that everyone knows to be untrue.
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... an environment designed to get new players into pvp
Incorrect. FW has never been soley the preserve of new players and nor will it ever be. It is every bit as important to the roleplay community as it is to pvp training and you need open you mind and lose the blinkers on this issue.
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... whilst skimming those pilots and corps from the Minmatar Militia who are too frightened to take on all of the 24th, that's quite rich.
I think you need to understand just how quickly we'd support any FW rules change that meant we were deccing the whole 24th rather than individual corps. You guys are quite fortunate we're limited in who we can actually dec and your experienced player veterans who choose to hide in the militia corp to evade our decs are quite illustrative of how seriously they see the situation.
Anyway. Having completely refuted every one of your points lets move back to the debate at hand. The essentially risk-adverse nature of the 24th Crusade - as I said earlier I don't think this makes you "bad" players - just boring people to fight.
Actually one of the main comments some of our new players from the TLF have said is that in SF they can chase you to hisec where previously you were immune to the enemy militia between big fights and how liberating that possibility was.
This shows the frustration I mentioned on the part of the TLF at your tactics - you want to win and don't mind boring them (and yourselves) to win. SF provides an avenue to attack you while you are using NPC spawn mechanics to hide from TLF players in Amarr hisec. You have to expect people to find ways to counter your tactics.
In many ways each of your earlier points represent nothing so much as your irritation that people have countered you.
SF carriers on stations were initially deployed to drive yours off the field.
SF domination of Kamela was designed to counter your docking games there.
SF deployment of carriers into your fleet battles was to oppose your use of out of militia logistics alts.
SF Titan drops counter Amarrian docking range "games".
And our wardecs allow our pilots to pursue and engage you in hisec where you are otherwise completely protected from organized minmatar response.
Anyway - these are just facts and observations. There is no need for smack talk on an out of character forum section.
3rd Forces in FW - discuss! |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.09.25 11:35:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Proxyyyy
Why is star fra*tion still interfering, fight someone your own size. When are you gunna go anti-pirate = / i doubt you guys would but you would get more fights, im sure your blue to 95% of low sec so you can attack the newbs in fw which if i couldnt get any pew pew everywhere else i would do.
I have to point out to you for the record that this is Eve Online. It's a single server unified world pvp game where all actions have consequences and players are fully able to engage with the content and systems of the game as they see fit.
This is also an out of character board so there is no need for silly pseudo-roleplay CVA smacktalk on this thread.
As for what Star Fraction choose to do with our playing time that really is none of your business. Particularly since it appears you have chosen to leave Faction Warfare and get involved with a different conflict entirely.
And as for pirates and blues - I'd suggest you have a read of our killboard if you are in any doubts of the kind of people we're in the habit of killing - and lets face it, since your own masters in the CVA deemed many of the 24th Crusade corporations "pirates" at one time or another I can't really see what your criticism is.
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I fail to understand your role? UK is fighting CVA. Another role playing alliance EM is Anti pirate. mind taking a anti-piracy position?
Mind reading up on our roleplay ideology before making these illjudged comments? It might help you on understanding things. Otherwise you should refrain from making suggestions about what we should or should not be doing.
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isnt easy takes balls you will lose alot of ships, which you dont seem to like. If Star fa*tion wants to join the fight sign up as corps. If not there are figths everywhere else in eve i find them everyday.
Ah, obviously you are just trolling then. Our list of wardec targets amongst the 24th Crusade don't include many "startup corps" as you put it. In fact we've maintained our longest decs on the self proclaimed "elite" militia corps who consider themselves good enough to stand on their own as corporations and often have significant out of militia help from alliances and 0.0 spaceholders.
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And you know what? i remember a time when i said you know why are star fa*tion here they are not joining the fight they seem to take away most of are fights why are they here? i got somthing along the lines of "they are allies and without them we wouldnt win" AND NOW YOU HEAR "You know its hard to fight the amarr with the tics around"
Heretics have played a somewhat similar role to Star Fraction for the 24th Crusade its true - but this is Eve, external forces will become involved in any conflict as they see fit. There is no fenced off junior pool in Eve Online. When your characters do things in game they invite reaction and consequences. These things happened to you in the 24th Crusade and thats probably part of the reason you choose to leave and join a large alliance with the numbers on their side most of the time.
Fair enough, your free choice - but it doesn't give you any grounds for silly smacktalk.
3rd Forces in FW - discuss! |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.09.25 11:42:00 -
[5]
Originally by: BattleStar Crusader
.. Saying the amarr are to risk avers and then saying they always bring the fight. Both sides are exactly the damn same. In all honesty, both sides bring the fight regularly and both sides don't take risk when they know it's absolutey impossible to win.
To be fair, I was the one who make the solid observation that the 24th Crusade was extremely risk-adverse and thats a judgement I make from the perspective of a 3rd force commander looking for ways to undermine and weaken the 24th Crusade military campaign against the TLF.
I think you do "bring the fight" - but only at limited times and generally when SF support is not available to TLF and generally when the TLF themselves has a somewhat poor fleet in various stages of disarray.
Now sure, thats good tactics - but like I said, they are somewhat "boring" tactics and its frustrating the players in the TLF who want more fights with less predetermined outcomes. But its not your responsibility as players to cater to this desire of course.
I've believed for a long while that the mechanics of FW do need quite a few redesigns and tweaks to make it fresh again and I'm pretty sure you can encourage and stimulate a more interesting style of engagement and campaign in FW by altering the mechanics of plexing and system occupancy at the base level.
+ As you and I have spoken of before, I do agree that when a 3rd party is deccing a militia corp that war should spread to the whole militia and allow all pilots in the target militia to get involved in the conflict.
I think this just leads to more pvp and thats a good thing because its what we're all ultimately here for.
3rd Forces in FW - discuss! |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.09.25 13:43:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Proxyyyy
...im tryna gain an understand of your kind of role playing who you define as enemies and why ... While many kinds of external forces interacting on a broad level are indeed a part of this game. im not sure ccp intended factional warfare to be interfered on the same level as lets say a pirate corps based in low sec. mainly i think this because you guys are contributing to the desruction or the slow Deterioration of the amarr/minmatar milltia war.
Well its easy to talk about "ccp intended this or ccp intended that" but the truth of the matter is that ccp developers care most about Eve being a giant sandbox for player interaction and what happens happens. some features work out well - invention/wormholes etc and get time and effort spend on them, some features turn out bad and get reworked - current 0.0 sov for example. But the one thing I've learned about ccp through playing the game and meeting the guys up in Iceland is that they aren't precious about who is supposed to be doing what with their game mechanics. If anything they love players finding imaginative ways to mess with their setting and play around with the environment and I think they'd have been frankly horrified if FW did turn out to be a little fenced-off region of eve where 2 week old characters duelled in rifters while the rest of eve ignored it.
Faction Warfare is in lowsec for a reason - and that reason is that if you want to pay the cost and mess with it you can pay in sec status or you can pay in isk via the wardec system. Lets remember it also has a significant roleplay function - ie changing the news headlines to reflect the state of play in the 4 empires. At the moment Gallente roleplayers are pretty much disgraced-head-hanger-no-hoper-losers because of the outcome of the Black Rise theatre. It would have been ridiculous (and completely beyond the spirit of eve) if CCP had excluded any positive intervention on FW results to non corp entities (given their general encouragement of alliance creation etc etc.)
Now sure, I'll grant you its possible Star Fraction has contributed to the slow deteriation of the Amarr/Minmatar front from your perspective. From mine its possible we've prevented a walkover by the Amarrians and rendered it a squalid little statemate instead. We've made absolutely no secret of our intention to target and wreck amarrian command and control corps/to interfere with Amarrian fleets and generally make life hard for 24th Crusade fleet commanders as a way of taking the pressure of the Minmatar. The reason we did this is because we wanted (as characters) to see the Amarrians lose. And we didn't (as players) want to give up our alliance identity or submit our character roleplay to being nationalists. SF is against the Amarrians - but we aren't for the minmatar republic. So yep, our roleplay is at odds with whats on offer in faction warfare with its simple polarized opposition but ultimately this is eve - you make the best of what you've got and work around problems.
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CCP seemed to intend some interaction on some level which is beyond me i dont get it, atleast to get more people into pvp or increase there understanding.
There is an extreme conservative sentiment in some FW participants that is a holdover from a particularly grim RP dispute from years ago that I term the sandboxista tendency
- in essence this is people getting upset that other people are interacting with them in a multiplayer game. But anyone claiming FW is only for novices while running their own battleships and out of militia logistics alts is quite frankly taking the mickey. FW belongs to nobody (and everybody).
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... no one out side of an alliance tounament thinks of you as a strong presence in low sec in pvp or in any other form than role-playing or otherwise, that is not me flaming or trolling.
We're rubbish. Someday I really hope somebody puts us in our place and wardecs the hell out of us :)
3rd Forces in FW - discuss! |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.10.05 16:41:00 -
[7]
Last night was an interesting example actually. SF pilots got mustered for action when one of our directors noticed a large Amarrian battleship-centred warfleet trolling around the warzone including many of our actual war targets. Minmatar were raising a fleet to counter but were somewhat outgunned by the Amarrian ship classes and the Caldari group that was obviously cooperating with the 24th and looking to pincer the TLF.
Anway, we raised a moderate-sized battleship group of our own backed by a pair of carriers ready to jump-in and raise the stakes if the battle happened on a gate. The TLF continued to muster their own forces and the 24th/StatePro forces decided to fortify a major unrestricted complex in Anka system to make their stand in.
I imagine both sides were effectively scouting the other so the relative numbers are no secret. It was pretty even in absolute hull mumbers with the 24th/StatePro having more logistics ships/battleships and the TLF/SF side having the bonus of obvious carrier support.
The reason the battle didn't happen however was the chosen ground of the 24th's fleet commander. Forming up inside a major unrestricted provides some significant bonuses to his forces:
1. warp in is preset so the defenders can spread their tackle -> dps -> remote rep in staggered ranges from the offensive arrival point.
2. Major unrestricted aren't completely unrestricted (they don't allow cynos for example) so our carriers would have to slow boat in and would be a long way from the enemy logistics.
3. Amarrian NPCs will be shooting all non-amarrians (relatively minor in a battle of this size but still relevant).
---
So the effect of one of two roughly equal forces choosing to hole up in a poweful defensible position is to face the aggressor with the choice of either a) not engaging or b) engaging and getting slaughtered. And unsurprisingly the TLF commander chose to remain mobile outside the plex and wait for the 24th to move from their foxhole (knowing that there is an absolute upper limit on how long you can keep 100+ players from amarr/caldari faction warfare boxed up in a plex with no fighting :)
Eventually the 24th/StatePro realized that our side wasn't going to jump in to their complex to get slaughtered on prepared ground and instead warped away to hisec and escaped.
So nobody got a fight - but it was still an interesting bit of tactical manouver and brinksmanship. I think if we'd had twice the numbers it would have been a no-brainer and we should have assaulted but given the balance of forces was so even it was the right call on the part of the TLF commander to wait the 24th out and keep space superiority post Amarrian retreat.
Its also interesting in the demonstration of how to setup a huge fleet battle in FW - its not enough to just put 100 guys in a plex and smack-talk the enemy into attacking - you have to present an inviting battle that "looks winnable" if you want to sucker people into this kind of thing - especially when the aggressor has no real reason or motive to fight on disadventageous ground in the current occupancy stalemate with no real changes occuring.
3rd Forces in FW - discuss! |
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